OK – I am getting a little tired of this. Most “non Calvinists” have two things in common. They don’t know what Calvinism is – and they think it’s wrong. Some think it’s terribly wrong – evil even. Chuck Smith (yes, THAT Chuck Smith) called it “almost demonic” – Brian Broderson called it “Christianity without Jesus".” This isn't hearsay – I heard them say it. Here is a link where you can here some of it also: http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Feedback/calvinism_almost_demonic_chuck_smith.mp3
Raul Reese called it a cult. Not to long ago there was a conference called “The John 3:16 Conference” whose main purpose seemed to be figuring out what to “do about” Calvinists. Most recently, Gerald Harris wrote an article called “The Calvinists Are Coming” (found here.) According to these people – we Calvinists are pretty close to evil incarnate – a “problem to be solved,” an “issue to be dealt with.” At the very least we are seen as an attack to be repelled.
The terrible treatment you will get at pretty much any Calvary Chapel if they find out (or even suspect) you are a Calvinist is legendary. My Pastor recently told me of a phone call he received a few years ago. It seems Greg Laurie (yes that Greg Laurie) had gone through the bookstore and ordered all the books he felt were “Calvinist” books taken off the shelves and thrown away. I guess burning them would have been too cliché’ Luckily, the bookstore employee simply bagged them up and called my pastor and asked him to come get them. Some great books found there way into the hands of some very hungry and grateful Christians (And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.)
If you doubt ANY of this, I dare you to do this experiment. Resolve that for 90 days, you are going to mention that you are looking into Calvinism and that you think it makes sense. In 90 days, you will (most likely) have basically been shown the door. They wont be friendly or even remotely Christian about it either. Don’t believe me ? I double dog dare ya to try it!
But why? These people will think nothing of quoting Luther, Augustine, Whitfield…. most notably they loooove to quote Charles Spurgeon. Pilgrims Progress by John Bunyan is very popular with these people. The John MacArthur Study Bible is a best seller in most Calvary Chapel bookstores. I purchased several R.C. Sproul books, John Piper books and even “The Pursuit of Holiness” by Jerry Bridges in the Harvest Christian Fellowship Bookstore – after Greg Laurie “cleansed” it. All these authors I mentioned are DIE HARD CALVINISTS! So according to the behavior I have pointed out, these authors espouse a view that is coming dangerously close to being labeled heresy. I have said before – if you remove all Calvinists from church history – you are pretty much left with Wesley and Finney (and Finney was a heretic ).
Like I said before, most – maybe all – non Calvinists make two errors. They have very little idea of what Calvinism is – and they think it’s wrong. Its very similar to the atheists who say, basically, that there is no God and they hate him. If you don’t know what Calvinism is – how can you possibly say it’s wrong. Most non Calvinists I know don’t even want to discuss it to find out what it is – they just want to go on thinking it’s wrong – all the while having no clue what it is, and unwilling to let someone who actually believes it explain it to them.
I guess my point is – is Calvinism a sin? Are Calvinists Christians? If they think we are Christians – then maybe we can end all this horrendous behavior. Maybe we don’t need more conferences trying to solve the “Calvinist problem.” If they think Calvinism is a sin – then maybe they should stop quoting them and be consistent in their shunning. Maybe they should condemn Spurgeon as a heretic and burn and ban all copies of “The Pilgrims Progress."
As for us - the Calvinists – us on the other side of this. We think Greg Laurie is a Christian. I fully expect Chuck Smith to be in heaven. I think they do good work for the Kingdom of God and I have benefited from some of their preaching. We would like non-Calvinists to at least be willing to discuss the issue – or at the very least, we would like them to accurately represent what we believe (without the slightest hint of hyperbole I say that not one single non-Calvinist in the history of the world, as far as I know, seems to understand what Calvinism is – I mean that as a literal and true statement). Non Calvinists are not a problem to be solved, they are not heretics – if you are a non Calvinist who would like to attend the same church I go to – you would be welcomed. This near hatred is definitely a one-way street. NON-Calvinism is not a sin. There I said it. Simply. Plainly. I have non Calvinist books in my library – and I use them. Knowingly. I sure wish the other side could say the same.
Raul Reese called it a cult. Not to long ago there was a conference called “The John 3:16 Conference” whose main purpose seemed to be figuring out what to “do about” Calvinists. Most recently, Gerald Harris wrote an article called “The Calvinists Are Coming” (found here.) According to these people – we Calvinists are pretty close to evil incarnate – a “problem to be solved,” an “issue to be dealt with.” At the very least we are seen as an attack to be repelled.
The terrible treatment you will get at pretty much any Calvary Chapel if they find out (or even suspect) you are a Calvinist is legendary. My Pastor recently told me of a phone call he received a few years ago. It seems Greg Laurie (yes that Greg Laurie) had gone through the bookstore and ordered all the books he felt were “Calvinist” books taken off the shelves and thrown away. I guess burning them would have been too cliché’ Luckily, the bookstore employee simply bagged them up and called my pastor and asked him to come get them. Some great books found there way into the hands of some very hungry and grateful Christians (And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.)
If you doubt ANY of this, I dare you to do this experiment. Resolve that for 90 days, you are going to mention that you are looking into Calvinism and that you think it makes sense. In 90 days, you will (most likely) have basically been shown the door. They wont be friendly or even remotely Christian about it either. Don’t believe me ? I double dog dare ya to try it!
But why? These people will think nothing of quoting Luther, Augustine, Whitfield…. most notably they loooove to quote Charles Spurgeon. Pilgrims Progress by John Bunyan is very popular with these people. The John MacArthur Study Bible is a best seller in most Calvary Chapel bookstores. I purchased several R.C. Sproul books, John Piper books and even “The Pursuit of Holiness” by Jerry Bridges in the Harvest Christian Fellowship Bookstore – after Greg Laurie “cleansed” it. All these authors I mentioned are DIE HARD CALVINISTS! So according to the behavior I have pointed out, these authors espouse a view that is coming dangerously close to being labeled heresy. I have said before – if you remove all Calvinists from church history – you are pretty much left with Wesley and Finney (and Finney was a heretic ).
Like I said before, most – maybe all – non Calvinists make two errors. They have very little idea of what Calvinism is – and they think it’s wrong. Its very similar to the atheists who say, basically, that there is no God and they hate him. If you don’t know what Calvinism is – how can you possibly say it’s wrong. Most non Calvinists I know don’t even want to discuss it to find out what it is – they just want to go on thinking it’s wrong – all the while having no clue what it is, and unwilling to let someone who actually believes it explain it to them.
I guess my point is – is Calvinism a sin? Are Calvinists Christians? If they think we are Christians – then maybe we can end all this horrendous behavior. Maybe we don’t need more conferences trying to solve the “Calvinist problem.” If they think Calvinism is a sin – then maybe they should stop quoting them and be consistent in their shunning. Maybe they should condemn Spurgeon as a heretic and burn and ban all copies of “The Pilgrims Progress."
As for us - the Calvinists – us on the other side of this. We think Greg Laurie is a Christian. I fully expect Chuck Smith to be in heaven. I think they do good work for the Kingdom of God and I have benefited from some of their preaching. We would like non-Calvinists to at least be willing to discuss the issue – or at the very least, we would like them to accurately represent what we believe (without the slightest hint of hyperbole I say that not one single non-Calvinist in the history of the world, as far as I know, seems to understand what Calvinism is – I mean that as a literal and true statement). Non Calvinists are not a problem to be solved, they are not heretics – if you are a non Calvinist who would like to attend the same church I go to – you would be welcomed. This near hatred is definitely a one-way street. NON-Calvinism is not a sin. There I said it. Simply. Plainly. I have non Calvinist books in my library – and I use them. Knowingly. I sure wish the other side could say the same.
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9 comments:
Pretty strongly worded post there, friend. But I must say I disagree with you. In fact, I think you're pretty off base. Is Calvinism a sin? Of course not. But I do feel pretty strongly that it is an erroneous view, especially in its more extreme forms. I haven't come to this view blindly. I've really run the full gamut. I used to hold to Calvinist views myself but came to the point that I could no longer accept them with integrity.
I think it is quite presumptuous to assume that all non-Calvinists don't understand Calvinism at all, as you claim. As if believing in Calvinism automatically gives one the intellectual corner market. Thoughtful peoplle who have rejected the Calvinist paradigm have done so good reasons, myself included.
Your persecuted tone also puzzles me. With pastors and scholars like John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Tim Keller, R.C. Sproul and D.A. Carson dominating the airwaves and bookshelves, to be a vocal non-Calvinist in today's American church culture is to be an exception to the rule. Try being an open theist (the conclusion that I personally am reaching). Talk about repression!
Now I'm not going on any king of crusade or anything like that. I honesty believe it would be worthwhile for everyone to tone down the rhetoric and focus in on what's really important: Jesus. Are we getting Life from Him or from what we say we believe? Sadly, often think it can be the latter.
Lets leave the most troubling part of your post till last.
First, I stand by my statement. As of 10/18/2012 I have not met a non-calvinist who understands what calvinism is. THAT is not an assumption - I have known me my entire life and I have never met (or heard or read) a non calvinist who understands calvinism. Having studied the issue fairly thoroughly for quite some time - I am still quite comfortable extrapolating from my experience to say: NOT ONE SINGLE NON CALVINIST UNDERSTANDS WHAT CALVINISM IS. Now, I am willing to be proven wrong - I thought YOU were going to try - but so far, I have seen NO evidence that there is such a thing as a non calvinist who understands what calvinism is. Somewhere in their understanding will be a straw man, a distortion, a twisting, or an outright error... or even a deliberate lie ("Brother Jack" - YouTube him!)
You mention that you used to be a calvinist. With all due respect (sincerely), I suspect you called yourself a calvinist but never really understood what calvinism is.
I do not, as you say, think that believing in calvinism gives me a corner market (I assume you meant "corner ON THE market"). I know plenty of very smart non calvinists. My dad is one. He is the single smartest man I personally know. He is also a deeply committed Christian - my dad is DEFINITELY saved (by Gods grace). My dad is also absolutely wrong on calvinism - and my dad has some serious misunderstandings as to what calvinism IS. I know because I have talked to him.
I agree that some thoughtful people have rejected calvinism, but I absolutely deny that they have done so for good reasons. Since Calvinism is true, there ARE NO good reasons for rejecting it.
My "persecuted tone" as you call it is anything but. I provided evidence, I even provided a link. Calvinists are being treated like a problem to be solved. As a quick aside - Mark Driscoll has too many problems to get into now, and there is a reason us "reformed folk" keep our distance from him. The names you listed do NOT dominate the airwaves - they are fairly rare actually... but their books sell like crazy, even in Calvary Chapel bookstores. Thats because these men rightly handle the Word of God, and Christians hunger for that. Being a vocal non calvinist is VERY common. Being reformed is the exception, neo-pelagianism is the rule.
Now we come to the troubling part of your comment. Open Theism is heresy. If you embrace it, it would demonstrate that you were never saved. The Bible spends too much time using God's knowledge of the future as proof of Gods "godhood" for open theism to be a tenable position. I would urge you to check out the "debate" between Gregg Boyd and Dr. James White on the subject. It makes the subject pretty cut and dry. Open Theism is heresy and indefensible.
Take care,
Rob
FYI: There are still a great many "Calvinist, Puritan books at the Harvest bookstore, mainly due to the fact that the manager himself is a Calvinist.
Heh, yeah, I am aware that the Harvest bookstore has some calvinists in suprising positions. I think Pastor Greg would be very upset to find how many Calvinists hold positions of authority (as it were) at Harvest. They aren't there to spy or even change Harvest into a Calvinist church. They are there because they like it there and love the teaching and preaching. They love the people and are serving and honoring God where they are.
We Calvinists arent a problem. We are your brothers and sisters in Christ.
I would disagree on your point about being left only with Wesley and Finney if you removed all Calvinists from church history. Many, if not all, of the early Church Fathers, for example, held to free will. Moreover, such a statement seems to oddly fly right over the formulator of Arminian theology , Jacob Arminius.
May all be well with you,
Felix Zamora
Actually, of the church fathers that actually touched on the topic before Augistine (and the vast majority simply never addressed the subject, too many other things going on) NONE of them would disagree with Calvin on the sovereignty of God, especially in salvation. You made the claim that "many, if not all" held to free will - but you cited none.
Remember though, Calvinists DO believe man has a "free" will. Man is free to choose whatever he wants - he is simply limited in what he is ABLE to want.
And I reject the notion that Jacob Arminius was a church father in any way - even though he would be closer to Calvin then say Greg Laurie. But still, Arminius was a poor theologian at best, and hardly one I would point to were I on the other side.
ha ha sorry to be so rude but its hard to take anything an open theist says seriously and for good reason, that "doctrine" my deluded freind is pure blasphemy.
I would like to say something in regards to your comment that all Non-Calvinists just don't know what Calvinism is. I bet you think that if they could just "understand" it as you do then they would agree and become Calvinists as well. You think you're right, and they're wrong. You draw a line in the sand as though you're two separate types of people. You accuse the former Calvinist of having never understood it in the first place. I challenge you to consider, if you actually KNEW what Calvinism was, you would actually end up rejecting it. I think that all Calvinists actually don't know what it is, or else they wouldn't believe in it.
Rob Morris, your comments are hilarious and so typical of arrogant Calvinists. Calvin even admitted that the early Church Fathers we're non Calvinistic as it relates to free will (obviously he didn't use the term Calvinist). Yes, non Calvinists often due understand but flat out reject Calvinism based on numerous factors. But non of which are that we do not understand. Lastly, Arminius was a poor theologon? Based on who's assessment? Have you actually read Arminius?
-Jason
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